GOT EM. I LOVE THIS UPDATE EVEN THOUGH I HAVENT PLAYED TODAY YET. CONTINUE IT.

I think the bow should be the same as the old bow performance, 2/8 damage and a slow loading speed (I do not know the value).

Or leave the damage as it currently stands and decrease only the loading speed equal to the old bow.

Increase resistance use for each shot is a good nerf because it currently consumes very little resistance and enemies can stay away from opponents who use melee weapons and at the same time continue to fire, which is not the case Ice Staff.

The best nerf would be to increase the use of resistance for each shot.

The Ice Staff is being underused, and needs a bit of buff to reach the height of the bow. I thought about the following:

Decrease use of resistance from 0.4 to 0.3;

The freezing projectile will be of the same speed as the normal projectiles;
Increases melee damage by 1/8 to 1,25 / 8.

Jeez.1st time the strong low fire rate bow was disabled due to being op,now high fire rate bow is op and its cancelled,and now this.Mixing and altering isnt good.Either we get fast reload bows with smaller dmg or strong bow with slower reload.And not to say,stamina usage is pretty shitty,cuz' you lose more of it now.Either stamina needs some serious buffs or consumption of it needs to be smaller.Make game balanced that way.

Slowing the projectile's speed from 800 to 600 is a big nerf, so the opponent would easily see his projectily and block. Decrease to 800 to 700 or leave 800;
The 2 resistance points for each shot are very large, in my opinion should use only 1 point of resistance for each shot of bow, and the only way to spend less resistance would be to stand still and shoot, and that would not be a good strategy.

With this nerf, ranged weapons will be LESS used than melee weapons;

The arc is not absurdly OP.

I've played around with the bow and the two major changes I've noticed here are the stamina drain and reload.

projectile speed seems to be a very minor change, and though this did impact my timing(ever so slightly), all this really meant is that you have learn to adjust your arrows a little differently to their blocks and kicks. also this does make long distance combat a little harder(I would presume, its hard to tell) but when your fighting someone at a very long range, unless they're completely oblivious, your arrows are most likely just there to pressure and pester, occasionally getting lucky anyways, so this projectile speed nerf doesn't really change that dynamic

I should also note that the special is as powerful as ever. I don't know if the special was affected by the projectile speed changes( as i said the speed change isn't very obvious) however even if it was, its still is as strong as ever. Its still very fast, a knockdown which allows you to gain some extra distance, and usually unpredictable as long as your not too obvious about it providing a constant threat even when its not used.

on to the real changes:

      Stamina cost: Ooh boy what can I say about this. It used to be the bow could continually sustain itself completely with stamina regeneration, being able to keep up a steady uninterrupted stream of arrows at its fastest release without much problems, with even enough stamina to spare for you to make a quick run-jump when needed. Now its less so. The arrows now take up MORE than the stamina regen can keep up with, so when your moving in one direction, you only have about 6 shots before your stamina is gone. This CAN be mitigated by staying absolutely still as you will have a 2x regeneration so putting the bow back to its original sustainability of fire, however I don't advise this as a strategy.

The implications of this means that the bow is now greatly reduced at its effectiveness at kiting people around. This is very noticeable as now its significantly more difficult to put pressure and get damage on those engaging you. It still is possible however with good timing, although now you have to be a lot more conservative with your shots. before you could just fire arrows back without any real penalty for failing to hit them(unless they're close enough that them kicking it back to you means that you don't have time to respond with a counter, in which case you better not hit their kick or that your moving sideways already) but now even a missed shot means less mobility and less damage potential.

       Reload speed: This is just something that you need to adjust to as a player. For those that have gotten used to the timing of the bow release, this is going to suck a little bit to begin with. It'll throw you off a bit, but you should get used to it before long. The combat implications of this though is similar to the stamina, it make the bow a lot less effective at kiting. This also means that your arrows will just slightly that much time for them to react to. most likely this results in you having to time your arrows between the kicks, blocks, and rollcatching. It also most likely makes you making you more dependent on your special for primary damage. 

I do wanna say that changes to the reload speed makes the bow far less 'noob friendly' as they say. I can very well see a new player picking up the bow giving it a try and coming to the conclusion that it sucks, simply due to the fact that reload speed is now making it a bit more difficult to use.

       Conclusion: I'm slightly vexed at these changes. I quite liked kiting with the bow and that just got a lot harder for me, though I have to admit perhaps it was a little but unfair. So being perfectly honest, though I'm slightly tilted with having to adjust some things, this probably was for the best.

WHY THE FUDGE DID YOU WRITE SUCH A LONG THING??? ANYWAY IM LIKING IT BECAUSE THE GRAMMAR WAS GOOD I GUESS.

Thanks for good and productive opinion. I was playing with bow and i think ,we can increase stamina regeneration for half more, and change projectile speed from 600 to 700 (old was 800). It's my first observation, but we are gonna see after time. We want make this weapon balanced, not too strong or too weak.

i guess that if we cant find a balanced way, we could maybe seperate melee and range arena, so bow stats wont have to change and people wont complain. But what i think about the nerf is that stamina needed should be lowered and maybe lower the reload speed. the arrow speed decrease is fine, maybe let it go just a tiny bit faster. 

so bad. because you have to wait two more seconds to throw the arrow.

SOOOOOOOOO BAD

Ikr.

I've already said the majority of this in discord but I thought it might be worth posting here too. I mostly agree with Jaxc, although I disagree with his stance on the arrow speed.

Arrow speed:

• The arrow speed being decreased doesn't make any sense at all. 
• If you're worried about the fact that people can't block the arrow with the shield or deflect it with a kick then decrease the time that you have to wait before you can do a kick/shield action after the other.
• If you were fighting someone in arena who was good at using kick/shield then it was very hard to time a shot between these actions to hit them anyway. Now it's going to be completely impossible, making the bow completely useless.

Stamina usage:

• The stamina usage is excessive, why should every other weapon take half a block of stamina and the bow take two?
• Before the update, it was already a difficult task to balance stamina usage (using run to dodge rolls/shield dash). All this does is make people using the bow hang back more, because it's now impossible to fight in close range.

Reload speed:

• It's way too slow, consider looking at a timing in between the old speed value and the new speed value.

I don't personally think there's even a problem with the bow, most of the hate is just because people don't like losing and the average age of the players is probably quite low. If you're fighting in higher ranks it's definitely not an unfair advantage. 

I think you've tried to nerf the bow as a whole instead of actually adressing the problem. The main complaint from people is that the majority of bow users "run". Focus on trying to fix that aspect, which by the way, isn't just a problem with bow users but with every weapon (lots of players run away waiting for their special attack to replenish) - it's just that the bow is  more effective to use when running away. 

All in all, the update is pretty bad. It's really biased against bow users, and I think it would have been a good idea to talk to people who actually use the bow to see what they think is unfair about it and talking to people who don't use the bow to see their side of things before making the update. Maybe even polling the ideas before doing the update... 

Definitely look at only changing one thing at a time next time, if you edit 3 aspects how are you going to know which one is actually effective? 

Please consider addressing these problems in a quicker time frame than 7 days.

There's been plenty of debate about the bow. The majority of players think that it needs a nerf, unless they are bow users, in which case they disagree

hmmm, I wonder why that is...

The thing about bow is that you can pressure other players without having to take any risks, which is unfair to melee users. You need to remember that most players are melee users, including all the new players without accounts. No one like to lose, so we have to think: is the frustration of trying to kill bow users with an axe losing us potential new players? Are we scaring away people who are still trying to decide how good the game is? Maybe this nerf was too extreme, but the bow wasn't balanced before the update either.

You killed the bow. The whole point of that weapon is to be MOBILE and RANGED. Melee using people are crying that bow users are running too much, but IT'S WHAT THEY DO. Bow is not a melee weapon, it's to be used in a distance, and without getting close - to not get hurt. It this continues, I'm gonna leave the game. And many other archers too I guess. Currently is absolutely destroyed, unusable. The old one needs to be brought back.

i played with bow for 20 minutes, was not running and was almost as good as with the swordso you dont have to run

still think the bow is broken ;/

Yea, sure, try surviving when you'll get to 1st place. To compare, yesterday I was able to do the Monster Kill, and now I can't even fight with multiple people due to stamina cost.

lol ez

Monster kill is cool and easy,just be crackhead magnet like me.

Bow got buff. Here is following stats:

Increasing the speed of the arrows from 600 to 700
-Reload from 0.75 to 0.65
-Stamina usage 1/2 less

Go and test it folks. I need to know how it works for you.

it's better, now let's see if all the weapons are balanced, if they are not, we'll find a way to balance them...

Exactly ^^

Stamina usage is still way too high, you've nerfed 2 things which make the bow weaker, but the stamina usage still makes it unusable. 

Everything other than the stamina usage seems fair, I think it should go back to its original value.

In my opinion, this latest update is the best for bow. The stamina usage isn't crippling unless you're constantly sprinting(which only happens if you're running or chasing a runner), and the projectile speed and reload is fine. Bow users obviously aren't helpless, since I just saw Blump going strong in fort with 100 bones and a bow. Sure, you can't sprint while firing arrows, but if you just incorporate some melee fighting and well timed dashes into your fighting style, and you'll be able to get monster kills again in no time.

Have you played at high ranks in arena? You need to be able to run to move out of the way from special/dash/roll... The stamina usage is still unbalanced for bow, it doesn't even make sense when all other weapons take less stamina.

Yes, I have played at high ranks in arena, and I never was constantly sprinting unless I was trying to catch someone who was running. If someone uses their special, you don't try to run away, you block them. If someone dashes in at you, you kick them or roll them. If someone rolls at you, kick them. This is simple stuff that you can do without constantly eating up your stamina. Kicking, dashing, rolling, and blocking doesn't use up stamina. Bow users are going to have to start using these moves more, instead of just keeping their distance and spamming arrows.

Yea,the 1st bow update increased damage at cost of reload and after it bow gained great fire rate and dexterity aswell reduced damage along with reasonable stamina usage which is best in my opinion.And now bow posses same reduced but good damage but speed and rate of fire decreased.It's really weakened.

I think you misunderstand what I mean... Sometimes it's easier to run+jump away from an attack than it is to use shield/dash, like when you've just used your shield, or when you're waiting for your dash to regen.

Just now tried it with the rebalancing and reduced stamina drain. The bow is still unusable.

All of the complaints about the bow being overpowered are bullshit.  Most people just don't care to figure out how to fight a good archer.  You have to be fast, you have to get in an archer's face, and just start smacking the hell out of them.  I usually do pretty well with the bow, but I come across melee fighters often who give me a hard time and even beat me.

With this update, stamina drain means you can't shoot and move effectively, which is absolutely critical to the archer class.  An archer is nearly useless in close combat.  The swing speed of the bow is maybe 1/3 or 1/4 the speed of a hammer/sword/axe swing, and does less damage than any other melee weapon.  Even a well-placed arrow does less damage than a hit from a melee weapon.

Think about specials. Claws, swords, and hammers let the player be invulnerable for just a split second. Archers don't get any benefit of invulnerability.  They have to hope they aim their special the correct direction to try to deter a pursuer.

I believe the bow was already nerfed prior to this update, and was challenging to use.  Having a bow did not guarantee a win.  I often see archers get steamrolled because they don't have the practice/strategy to be good.  This update just ensures that you'll never see an archer do well again.

And yet another point - melee can swing non-stop and not use any stamina, and a a much faster rate than either firing or swinging a bow, even prior to this nerf.  Each bow shot (which is the archer's most used attack) costs stamina, is at a much slower rate, and has less damage, compared to melee attacks.  An archer simply does not have the capacity to execute the amount of damage and speed that melee can.  Melee also has area damage - you can damage multiple opponents with one normal swing, and even much more with special.  An arrow can hit only one target.  Only the  bow special has the capability to damage multiple opponents, and that's only if they are very precisely aligned.

Here are some strategies for avoiding archers:

- use obstacles

- use shield to block arrows

- kick arrows (even special) back. Kick has no effect on melee specials. Also, you cannot redirect melee attack damage back on opponent like you can with archer.

- dash/jump evasively

- most melee specials will make you invulnerable and get you in close range to an archer so you can attack

If this nerf is going to be permanent, at least increase the melee attack damage to be comparable to an axe or something.

And make it like bow staff from mkx.Range of hammer,speed and damage of spear, projectile damage of current bow,special:flaming ball.

Couldn't edit my comment so adding a little more here.

- arrows are much slower now so now it's much easier to just move out of the way.

An archer's options for avoiding melee: keep your distance.  If melee gets close to an archer, it's game over unless the archer manages to knock the opponent over or disarm them and run to create distance.  But oh, you've already consumed all of your stamina by trying to use your weapon, so you die.

If arrows are going to be nerfed this much, at least increase the attack speed and or damage of the bow in melee, so we can stand somewhat of a chance when melee gets close, as they inevitably will with this update.

Remember, even though melee users can continually swing their weapon, that opens then up to being stunned, which allows them to be punished really hard. The old bow could constantly fire and pressure melee users without any pressure in return. With a melee weapon, every attack has risk attached, but without stamina drain on the bow you can attack with impunity without any potential of being attacked in return. Sure, you can kick back arrows, but if the archer is just walking, not even sprinting but walking, the deflected arrow isn't a threat. Yes, before the nerf you could fight bow users and win, but it was harder than fighting other weapons, and that is what makes it unbalanced.

"That opens them up to being stunned" - I'm assuming you mean by a shield block.  If an archer does block a stun a melee attack, they'll be able to get one arrow in pre-nerf, two if the timing is really good and they're really lucky.  Or one bow swing in.  Archers simply do not have the ability to "punish" someone, i.e., unleash a barrage of heavy damage.

There was stamina drain on the old bow.  If you were running a lot you couldn't shoot.  And the pressure that can be put on the archer is by getting in close, by kicking arrows back.

It may be harder to fight an archer long distance, but in close quarters there's almost no competition, the archer doesn't stand a chance.  That's the tradeoff.

You are saying that you can't effectively attack a stunned player without arrow(s) if you have bow, correct? Well why don't you place a bomb and roll? Or throw a knife and kick? Why not throw your bow? Or maybe use your special for this instead of just randomly shooting people with it. I mean, heck, you could just hit them with your bow and then roll, and that's around as much damage as a hammer, more actually if before or after you stick an arrow in them. See, you have options when you stun people.

And the stamina drain on the old bow was tiny. You recovered it as soon as you shot your arrow. People in fort all the time would just run and spam.

Yes, you are right. It's harder now to fight bow users at range. I think that's a good thing. Bow still is ranged, but it's not as powerful.

Just lower the stamina cost to as it was before, and everything will be good.

I was playing around yesterday with bow and I neglected to read any patch notes before I logged but I noticed the stamina changes immediately and to me that says quite a bit.

It seems to me that bow is not even worth using at this point while these stamina changes remain, the arrow speed is really a minor change in comparison, I might as well just practice with a new melee weapon since that's essentially what the bow is now too. To kill most players I found myself rolling and dashing around most of the time simply waiting out the cooldown on bow special to finish players off.

This, exactly. I've seen the number of archers drop to nearly zero.  It's super uncommon to see an archer now.  I've started using a sword myself.

Prior to the update, the number of archers in fort was already comparatively low.  I think that demonstrates that it's already a difficult weapon to use, but with this update it's just not worth even trying.

The stamina and arrow speed has been reverted guys, the bow is usable again now.

It's not reverted. Stamina is better but draw speed & arrow speed are still super slow.

Yes it's basically like playing badminton.

I use bow, and my question is:

Whats so bad about that? Is there any skill in spamming arrow after arrow and hoping one is lucky and isn't blocked, dodged, or kicked? You should learn to roll and kick and actually FIGHT instead of just throwing arrows and hoping you hit someone.

In a rolling/dashing melee fight I do almost as well as with a bow in its previous state, my name in-game is BadgerBunter and I have been practicing at bow in this game a long time.

I was playing with bow and I didn't even know it was nerfed - maybe it's because I haven't played in a while, but it seems fine to me.

I think you might have missed it